Ambassador Liu Guijin answered questions about China-Africa cooperation at a seminar organized by Brussels Institute of Contemporary China Studies

 

A brief self-introduction

 

From 1995 to 1998, I served as the Ambassador of China to Zimbabwe. That was the first time for me to be an ambassador. My last post was in South Africa. I was the Chinese Ambassador there from 2001 to 2007, that is six years. One month after I left my post in Pretoria, I was nominated the Special Representative of the Chinese Government for African Affairs as well as on Darfur issue. I mainly deal with the Darfur issue as well as other conflicts on the continent. And from time to time, I attend the seminars and lectures. In between my sub-Saharan African postings, I spent most of time working with the Department of African Affairs in Beijing, where I served as the staff and then Director, Deputy Director General, and Director General. When I was the Director General, I was part of the working team preparing for the launch of FOCAC. In November 2006, we had the FOCAC summit in Beijing which produced great influence in the world. I regard myself as half African almost. I love the African continent. I am not that pessimistic about Africa as some Western commentators. China regards Africa not as a burden, not as the lost continent, but a land of opportunities and potentials. Although the continent has a lot of problems and has been affected by the current international financial crisis, it is quickly picking up the pace of development. Many conflicts and bloody wars have been put to an end, like in Angola and Mozambique. Even in Sudan, they are going to have a general election and in 2010 there will be a referendum. Across Africa, there are still some problems, the conflict in Somali is still going on, some areas are not stable such as the eastern DRC, some coup d'etats, and some unconstitutional changes of governments, but that is not the mainstream. We see Africa as a robust continent.

 

If you Compare the current Chinese interests in Africa with Chinese interests in 1981 when you started working in Africa, has it changed a lot?

 

Yes, it has changed a lot indeed. China's economic relations with Africa are expanding and consolidating in all aspects and at all levels. Here are some figures demonstrating China-Africa trade relations. When the New China was founded in 1949, the total trade between China and the African continent was just a little over 12 million US dollars. It took 20 years to grow from 12 million to 100 million US dollars. It took another 20 years for it to increase to 1 billion US dollars. During the first 40 years after the New China was founded, our trade with Africa grew quite slowly. It took us only ten years from the end of the eighties to the end of the nineties to make it from 1 billion to 10 billion US dollars. Over the first eight years of the new millennium, the trade volume has grown from 10 billion to 100 billion US dollars. By the end of 2008, bilateral trade between China and Africa hit the target of 100 billion US dollars. Unfortunately in 2009, it dropped by 15 percent to 91 billion US dollars. I hope it will recover to over 100 billion US dollars again this year. China-Africa trade is growing at a very fast speed. But we have to realize that our bilateral is not big in absolute terms. The European Union is Africa's biggest trade partner. In the year 2000, the bilateral trade between China and Africa is only 2 percent of Africa's total trade, and 2.2 percent of China's total trade volume. By the year 2008, China's total trade with Africa was 100 billion US dollars, accounting for only 4 percent of China's total trade volume, and 11 percent of Africa's total foreign trade volume. You can see Africa's trade with the world is shrinking, but its trade with China is growing. Nevertheless, it is still less than China's trade with ROK, China's neighbour, which is 150 billion US dollars. So we cannot over exaggerate the growth. In the case of investment, for many years we have no investment in Africa in the strict sense in traditional definition. We provide assistance and donation, but no significant investment. By the end of 2008, our investment in stocks hit 7.8 billion US dollars, which is a small figure. It didn't include a Hong Kong based Chinese company's investment of 7 billion US dollar in Sudan. We do not include private contracts and investments in our official figures. Although 7.8 billion US dollars is something, it lags far behind EU. With the above figures, I'm trying to show that China-Africa trade is growing fast, but Western countries don't have to worry, as it is still modest. In China's relations with Africa, we take a new approach, we don't attach political stings, We have received a lot of criticism from NGOs and the Western media, accusing us of undermining their efforts to promote democracy, good governance and transparency, but the criticism is unfair.

 

What is China's response to this criticism?

 

I wonder if you have read a book recently published by Oxford University press, entitled "the Dragon's Gift", subtitled "the true story of China in Africa". The author made some good arguments, particularly with regard to Chinese investment in Africa. According to that book, a Chinese company made an investment in the DRC, some say 6 billion, some say 9 billion US dollars. It is a whole package arrangement, that is to say, this Chinese company provides financial support to the DRC, and the majority of the money will be used to build roads, hospitals, schools etc. We did not ask the DRC government to guarantee the loan because it would increase the debt burden of the DRC, which would be inconsistenting with World bank and IMF policies. The Chinese company invested in infrastructure in exchange of natural resource rights. But some people say the Chinese company did not encourage anti-corruption efforts, good governance and democracy, not condition the loans on human rights and freedom. That criticism is not fair. According to that book, if you take a closer look, you will find it is project-tied loans which is used for the projects and to benefits to people directly, the DRC government can not get access to the money, and the corrupt officials can not put a cent into their pockets. So the author has made a strong argument, come to a conclusion that in reality this kind of arrangement actually reduces the chance of corruption.

 

So corruption is no problem for Chinese projects?

 

No, if you know the Chinese companies' way of doing things, like in Algeria, Mozambique or Angola or other resource-rich countries. We adopt an independent foreign policy of peace, and the basic tenets of our foreign policy are mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, equality and win-win cooperation. We don't try to pretend to know what Africa needs to do and how to do it in order to achieve development. You know that Western countries' policies on Africa have been changing from time to time. In the seventies, their policies focused on integrated agricultural development. In the eighties, the policies changed to an emphasis on governance for so-called economic restructuring, which failed. Then in the nineties, the policies changed to promoting capacity building, multi-party systems and so on, and the investment in infrastructure was neglected. The Africans don't have enough money. According to our experience, if you want to get rich, you have to build the roads first. By helping Africa, we are helping ourselves. That is our interests. That is win-win, mutual benefit. For example, the DRC does not have the money or resources to build their infrastructure, but we have it. The minerals have been in there for millions of years untapped, but the DRC cannot get enough money for roads. That is not something evil. The author made it clear in that book. This author is a professor in the US who has followed at least 30 years of China's aids. I don't agree with everything she said, but in certain cases she is objective. Recently, the former US Ambassador Mr. David H. Shinn, who has 37 years of experience of working in Africa and studying Africa, wrote an article in which he said sometimes the policy of the developed world towards Africa is too ideal. He maintained that the ideal is one thing, the reality on the ground is another. What is needed is something in between, and that is objective. China has taken an objective approach welcomed by Africa. The magazine "Economist" conducted an on-line debate last January. The question is "Is China welcomed in Africa?" The result is 59 percent yes and 41percent no. I tend to believe this result. Not long ago, Mr. Wade, President of Senegal, a veteran African leader with far-reaching vision on Africa's renaissance, wrote an article, entitled "China, Africa and Senegal". He made a strong argument by saying: "The one-size-for-all approach to address African problems is wrong. The lesson we Africans learned from our traditional partners is that their assistance and aid policy have not yielded the expected results. Now is time for Africa to multiply its partnership with outside world, Africa needs partners who are innovative in providing financial packages to help Africa to develop. This is where China fits in, China has made considerable positive contribution to enhancing Africa's image and identity in the international stage. That partially explains why the westerners are paying more attention to Africa.

 

We heard that there are some social unrests in Zambia, in DRC where African workers with Chinese companies were not getting paid enough. How does China respond to that?

 

What I just said is the main trend. This shows Africa benefits from its engagement with China. In this world nothing is perfect. We do not try to deny that there are some small private businesses having some malpractices and problems. But not that many, not in alarming proportion. I remember two years ago in Zambia there were some labour actions on a small scale. If you approach Zambian government or NGOs now, they might tell you something new and something different. Affected by the financial crisis, the prices of mineral resources are falling drastically, two years ago, one ton of copper was selling at 7000 US dollar.All of sudden, it dropped to 3000, more than 50 percent lower. A lot of companies from developed world could not sustain and left Zambia, and thousands of workers lost their jobs. At this moment, Chinese companies came up and put in their resources and saved thousands of jobs for the Zambian workers. They even made three commitments: one, do not scale down production; two, do not reduce the salaries for the workers; and three, try to do more business and put more money into the copper sector. Chinese companies are gradually learning because we are comparatively new in investment market of Africa. They are ready to learn commonly-recognized international practices and regulations. Kofi Anan launched an initiative called Global Compact. The aim of Global Compact is to promote environment protection, corporate social responsibility, labour regulations, and good governance. Almost all major Chinese companies have joined the Compact. They are doing a good job. If you have opportunity to go to Sudan to visit the Khartoum oil refinery, you will be amazed by CNPC (China National Petroleum Corp.). They use the most advanced technology, even the technology not used in China, and have employed thousands of local workers. And in the Chinese perspective, why are there turmoils in Africa? Why are there so many conflicts? That is because of underdevelopment. The root cause is poverty. No matter how harsh your sanctions might be and how many peace keepers or soldiers you send, even if you overthrew those in power who you call dictators, you could not solve the problems without tackling the root cause.

 

In Sudan, we have UNAMID, each year the cost is two billion US dollars, sometimes the Sudanese authorities complained to us why should those 2 billion US dollar not be used on water, agriculture or development. The conflict in Darfur has been there for seven years. More and more people, particularly some American academics realize that poverty is the root cause of the Darfur issue. It's a kind of low intensity conflict. The rebel forces launched the war to grab the rare resources. The political process has achieved some positive results. We have different approaches, different perspectives to African problems. Let Africa make the choice. China doesn't seek hegemony or dominance. China doesn't pursue a scenario where Africa would abandon their traditional partners. We think it is good for Africa to have as many partners as possible. We recognize the fact that the EU countries have their advantages and strong points because of the historical links, geographical proximity, same languages. From China, we have to fly 10 to 15 hours to get to Africa, you are so close to Africa. China is a developing country benefiting from globalization and world peace. You are the biggest investors. We are very pragmatic. We do not seek to challenge European countries in Africa. We do not challenge the existing order in Africa, because this is the reality. In a word, we pursue cooperation instead of confrontation.

 

So China doesn't have a problem with Russia and Turkey foray in Africa?

 

Chinawelcomes Russia, India, Turkey, European countries remaining there. China is not capable of shouldering such a heavy responsibility as to develop Africa and help Africa to develop. We welcome as many partners as possible in Africa. That is good for Africa. We are sincere and doing serious business. We have no ideological considerations or covered-up strategic interests. As the former US Ambassador David Shinn noted that: "I have not seen the slightest bit of interest China assumes in selling its model to Africa". He further argued that because China knows its model is not suitable to Africa. Africa has its own culture which is different from that of China. For any African country willing to follow China's model, the government has to be sure the citizens are ready to forgo their holidays, weddings, and funerals, to work from sunrise to sunset, and to save most of their salaries.

 

When I was in South Africa, there were very strong criticism from the trade unions and textile workers claiming that they have lost thousands of jobs because of Chinese imports. They asked me: "What is your secret to success? Can you teach us?"We don't have any secret. If you want me to speak the truth, we have only two words: hard-working. The Chinese are hardworking. The Chinese managers in Africa are working hard and at low salaries. According to the book "The Dragon's Gift", Chinese managers annual salary is 19 thousand US dollars for China-aided projects. You know how much for German engineers? 110 thousand US dollars minimum.

 

Another story is, in an African country, there are German, Swedish and Chinese engineers. The Chinese engineers live in places as simple as you can imagine. The Swedish engineers live far away, a hundred miles away in a five-star hotel. They took a helicopter to work. African leaders told me, "you give less than European countries, but you are more efficient. This is something tangible, something real, something on the ground." We recognize the interests of the European countries in Africa. We've only brought competition among us through hard work and efficiency. It cuts down the cost for Africans. Who is benefitting from this? Africa. Any country who genuinely wishes to help Africa should feel happy about it. China is a developing country, and our cooperation with Africa is the poor helping the poor. Our GDP is large, but per capita is low, ranking behind 100th places. Our cooperation with Africa is South-South cooperation.

 

Is Africa also becoming an important market for Chinese export products. Is that a problem for African development?

 

I have to admit that Chinese textile products are posing challenges and bringing competition to local African products because of our good quality and cheap prices. But there are Bangladesh, Malaysia, India and others. We are ready to share our experiences in textile industry and trying to help Africans. Encouraged by the Chinese government, we have gradually set up quite a few trade or industry cooperation economic zones in Africa, like those in China. In those zones, Chinese companies have invested and introduced advanced technology, good machines and quality products, which severs as kind of catalyst to promote industrialization in Africa. In this way, we are helping Africa to enhance its manufacturing capacity and create more jobs for Africa. So this is good, we have something new. Africa is not only a market for China's products. China helps Africa in its long-term development. We help each other.

 

What are the prospects of tripartite cooperation?

 

Let me touch on the trilateral cooperation. This has been a topic for a few years, yet we still don't have many things concrete on the ground. We remain open for the trilateral cooperation. We think we can start from simple ones to more comprehensive ones. We could identify some areas for cooperation such as health care, agriculture, or infrastructure. For the Chinese side, we have some considerations. If this cooperation is to become full fledged, it needs good environment; it needs mutual trust and understanding. But now, so many negative things, accusations, criticism against China. That is not conducive to our cooperation. We need to improve the overall environment. We have to listen to the Africans opinions. Roughly two years ago, when the EU was about to draft a document for EU-China-Africa trilateral cooperation, we asked our embassies in Africa to consult their host countries. The result was mixed. Some were enthusiastic about the idea, and some opposed it. For the majority it sounded good, but they had worries. They told us, we are working together so well, why make things so complicated, why make things more expensive. Because they know that their cooperation with China is more effective and the costs of Chinese projects are low.